Geek Related

D&D 4e’s Out… And It’s Awful. Here’s Why

June 6, 2008 · 78 Comments

Dungeons & Dragons Fourth Edition has hit open sales, but as my review bits show, you probably shouldn’t bother (see the “4e PHB Readthrough” posts on this blog for the nitty gritty). It’s a World of Warcraft-inspired tactical combat game, but very unlike (and incompatible with) previous editions of D&D.

I’m not some insane 3e-only-lover or D&D-hater. I’ve gamed since the early 1980s, starting with Star Frontiers and quickly moving to the D&D Basic set, and happily migrating to AD&D first edition, AD&D second edition, and D&D third edition. Each time, the new version with its greater simplicity yet more options easily sold me on being an improvement on the previous version, and I cruised right along! My bookcases still bear the weight of more Second Edition gear than anything else, just because they published the most product ever in that generation – but except for repurposing adventures it lay fallow after the upgrade. I view players of “1e derivative” products like Castles & Crusades and OSRIC with pity.

I’m also no D&D-only guy – I’ve played everything from Deadlands to Feng Shui to Call of Cthulhu – I have several Cthulhu Master’s tourneys under my belt and have playtest credits in things as farflung as “Wraith: The Great War.” Check out my RPG reviews – they’re pretty widespread. I also can’t be accused of being just a “collector”, I play all the time. So I think I know RPGs in general, and D&D in particular.

I don’t have a (previous) bone to pick with WotC. I helped launch 3e as one of the original Living Greyhawk Triads at Gen Con 2000.

4e is the first time I thought of D&D “Whoa – this isn’t going in the right direction.”

Not only is it the largest change ever in D&D, possibly excepting only the shift from the OD&D mostly-minis rules to 1e, but it’s a negative change – not only relative to D&D but also to the rest of RPGdom. If some other company put out this exact game under a different name, it would already be sinking into obscurity. Like Windows Vista, it’s a failure – a failure that will regrettably sell enough copies, due to its maker’s market share, that they will deceive themselves likewise into thinking it’s a success.

My chapter by chapter 4e readthroughs are revealing a lot to dislike, but what’s the mile-high view of what the problem is? It’s a couple main categories.

Back Incompatibility

The oddest thing about this new ruleset is that they didn’t just change the mechanics. You expect mechanics to change in each edition, and being incompatible there is no offense. But D&D has always been a game with a rich history of continuity. People run games in their favorite or own campaign setting for decades.

In 4e, they have decided to “rewrite history.” Previous core races, classes, and spells that have been enshrined in novels, campaigns, and tradition have been discarded. Greyhawk, the campaign setting that has thrived from OD&D until the last issue of Dungeon Magazine, is now impossible with the new D&D as written. The cosmology, which previous classic stories like the Temple of Elemental Evil revolved around, are changed. Wizards don’t use the Vancian spellcasting model, which has been an integral part of D&D always.  The same campaign/campaign world cannot transition from 3e to 4e without a complete rewrite; something that’s never been required for a D&D version upgrade before.

What makes this new game D&D, besides the branding? If another company released this under a different name, it would get reviews on RPG.net about being a “fantasy heartbreaker” with “better than average production values” and that would be it.

Retreat from Openness

With Third Edition, D&D took a brave step into empowering their community and “sharing” the core of D&D by picking up the open source concept of open licensing. Product flowed, companies sprung up. The best stories since the classic 1e modules came from companies like Paizo Publishing and Green Ronin.

Now, Wizards has decided to say a big “screw you” to that. Not only are they not using any more open licensing, but they are requiring companies who are 4e licensees to agree not to publish materials under the old open license. After a big stink, the restriction was “clarified” to only apply to products in the same product line, but that’s a difference only in the magnitude and not the nature of the hostility towards openness here.

They are just giving off “closed” vibes about everything. From their behavior toward their playtesters to their jerking around the entire D&D publisher community with their delays and equivocation regarding licensing. Heck the GSL still isn’t out, and was supposed to cover fan sites but now that’s “coming later.” Their every move is dripping with lawyeriness and disregard for their customers and partners. It’s hard to keep an open mind towards the game itself when its maker is being a grade A asshole.

Awful, Derivative Rules

So maybe I could say back incompatibility was OK – after all, the Wizards adventure products in 3e were all derivative “returns to” the original great D&D adventure locales, from the Temple of Elemental Evil to the Ruins of Greyhawk. A fresh start would be nice, perhaps. And I like openness, but I can see the business drivers that sometimes make it not a good idea. If 4e was a brilliant game, those two complaints lose their luster.

But even when you take it to the table – 4e is not brilliant. They took some steps towards improving the game – the core mechanics are cleaner- but then they just layered gratuitous awfulness on top.

“Oh, all that tracking of effects like Bless is such a bummer!” they said. Sure, we’ve all had combats that get slow because people are trying to remember all the pluses and minuses from Bless, Haste, etc. And what did they do? Put an “aura” on nearly every monster, and make every power for every class give fiddly little minor bonuses for one round in duration. So now instead of remembering “+1 to hit from Bless, and another +1 to hit and damage from the Prayer, for the entire combat” you get to remember “oh, this round Fred hit someone with some power and I have +1 to hit this turn only. And we’re in a monster’s -1 to damage aura. And Jane’s heal spell also is giving me a free healing surge if I do that instead of attacking on this turn only. And the warlord’s aura is giving me +1 to hit, until he moves away from me.”  Their goal was good, their implementation worse than 3e – one-round effects and aura effects plus more mobile combat equals pain.

And call me crazy, but when I play a RPG I like to be able to pretend my character’s a real person in a real world, albeit with differences from reality, like magic – but still internally consistent. They are kicking that in the balls with each chapter of 4e rules. From the preposterous economics to movement only being in “squares,” to marking – it’s nearly impossible to “pretend you’re there,” and not just be playing a board game.  They’re deliberately moving away from immersion as a chief goal of an RPG.

And the ripoffs from World of Warcraft are just sad. I know WoW is awesomely successful and they’d shoot their CEO to get 1/10 of its business.  But the character “builds,” and talent trees, and disenchanting magic items into magic dust, are utterly blatant ripoffs. I’ve always hated derivative crap in D&D – when someone makes an adventure with monsters obviously taken from the movie Aliens, I don’t think “yay,” I think “boo.” It’s not that I don’t like WoW, either; I’ve got a level 69 priest who’s about to go raiding myself, but it’s not the same experience as D&D or any real RPG.  Orcs and spells aren’t what makes a RPG a RPG – you can have a novel, a computer game, a picture, or a RPG sharing the same fantasy dress. It’s the ability to live in another world and look through another person’s eyes for a short time. And 4e has decided that’s no longer in scope.

Was 3e perfect? No, and it’s gotten heavy under its weight. I support initiatives like Pathfinder that look to fix what’s wrong with 3e. But 3e is the highest point in the D&D game’s evolution – it’s to be built on, not thrown away.

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78 responses so far ↓

  • Lo'Jakz // June 6, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Reply

    Interesting take. I agree with you on most of your points but, I do disagree about it’s success. I think it will be successful, but I do think it’s a completely different market than you or I that they are targeting.

    I do whole-heartedly agree with your last statement about 3.5. The beauty of the system is it’s consistency and tweakablity.

    I’m going to check out the rest of your reviews, thanks for taking the time for your thoughts.

    BTW: I love Castles & Crusades, I guess there’s no taking critism for nostalgia :D

  • mxyzplk // June 7, 2008 at 8:11 am | Reply

    Well, I think they think that they’re addressing a different market – “these kids nowadays.” But are they right?

    Firstly, their equation of WoW to young males is incorrect based on WoW demographic surveys. Secondly, I don’t think they understand what it is that makes people play, or not play, RPGs.

    The “kids nowadays” aren’t much on the novel reading or even the comic reading – that’s for us old folks; they read mangas. They don’t play RPGs, they play MMORPGs. Is taking a RPG and making it about 10 percent different really going to bridge that gap? Or adding some pretty crap computer software to it? I don’t think they have what it takes or even know what it takes to hit those other markets, and they will be unsuccessful at it while alienating some of their base.

    I don’t see anything in the new D&D that says “broader appeal” or “convert WoWers.” In fact, by becoming too derivative of WoW they invite a comparison that’s unfavorable to themselves. WoW is much preferable to a slow, paper-based WoW simulator.

    It’s like Steve Jackson Games’ “Frag,” a board game emulating a first person shooter like Quake. In their case they understand it’s simply a novelty and not a serious attempt at “luring FPSers”. The more D&D becomes WoW, the more of its comparative benefits it gives up (flexibility) and people then compare “Hmmm. Roll dice for 10 hours or click the buttons for 1 hour?”

  • Brian // June 7, 2008 at 11:52 am | Reply

    Pity? Really? Why?

    As for the review, spot on, from my brief perusal of the game. Complicated, too heavily grounded in the battle mat, bizarre choices (gutting most of the “utility” spells from the wizard’s repertoire, and replacing them with a sprinkling of “rituals” that can’t be used in the heat of an exciting moment), and utterly hostile to verisimilitude. The books are surprisingly poorly laid out and the illustrations are range all over the place. Paizo puts out better looking and more professional free PDFs than these core books.

    I’m not sure who the audience is, honestly. The design appears geared to appeal to folks who played CCGs like Pokemon and Magic. The log-with-breasts dryad and the oversized weapons and armour look very Warhammer. There are lifts from WoW. It really looks all over the place, just like the art.

    In fact, I think that’s the central feel I get from this edition: all over the place. It’s like they couldn’t decide on a theme or feel or goals, and just kinda threw in anything that looked cool, while at the same time rigorously cutting down the mechanical options to preserve combat balance.

    - Brian

  • kelvingreen // June 7, 2008 at 5:28 pm | Reply

    Far, far too combat-based (even for a game with its origins in wargames), and the art is shockingly awful for a professional product.

    I’m also a bit concerned that bringing Warforged and other bits in, they’re undermining one of the key selling points of Eberron.

  • Patrick // June 8, 2008 at 3:19 am | Reply

    As I read through the PH I could feel my blood pressure starting to rise :-o This is no longer DnD – it’ something very different and I think it’s slap in the face to people who *liked* the way that the DnD core mechanic worked. I cetrainly won’t be switching to 3.5. My party has a monk and a druid…I see we’d have to wait until a “later volume” to use those classes. Huh? Aren’t these established classes that have been in D&D forever? As far as I can see, all the spell casting classes (bar the warlock) have been completely ruined. The selection of wizard “powers” is pitiful for a class that had 300+ spells. The per enounter limitation on some of these powers is also bizarre and arbitrary (clealry a “balancing” attempt, but that does not make it sensible in the context of the game). I always played a spell caster strategically and was never bored – I think that’s a problem with player and/or DM. Supposedly this was one of the reasons for “templatizing” the classes…because some people felt left out and weren’t constantly “having fun”. Well, imho, they should find another game to play if they have a short attention span or want constant action. An evolution of 3.5 which incorporated some of the balancing ideas of 4 would have been fine. This is an abortion.

  • vomitbrown // June 8, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Reply

    A buddy of mine read the book. His response to it was, ” I rather go to the dentist than play 4e.”

  • Pete // June 9, 2008 at 1:37 am | Reply

    WoW. (intended) D&D 4.0 (make NO mistake it is the beginning of 4.1, 4.2, 4.3…) is like what a really, really old person must think “the kids” “are sure” to enjoy. Here’s what I imagine might have taken place:

    Wizards: “The kids, they like the MMORPG’s right?, Let’s give ‘em one, but not with computer’s, with books! That’ll be kewl. That’s how kid’s say cool now right? Why do they play the “Wow”… why don’t they love 4.0…. hey… oh. I peed myself a little. It’s hard bein’ old and stupid.”

    Somebody else: “Don’t forget, in 4.0 there MUST BE crap artwork and the WORST art design ever!

    Wizards: “Great! We’ll do it!”

    4.0 is born. Soon 4.1 will replace the error of 4.0’s ways!

    All Hail 4.2.1!

  • Mikey // June 9, 2008 at 2:37 am | Reply

    I concur. I hate it. I was always going to get the core books – cos I am a collector at heart and now in my mid 30’s I can afford to get RPGs without having to work shtty Saturday morning jobs or wrangle sheep (one full Saturday so I could buy AD&D’s Battlesystem).

    But the changes they have made look unwieldy and overly complex. Weeee everyone now has “spells” – cos that’s going to speed things up. Minions die at any damage? My gawd that’s the greatest Turkey in RPG history. Skills got condensed – which is a good thing in some spots – but things like Craft/Profession gone completely. NPCs are basically hand waved “normal men” as per basic D&D. Vancian magic – which has been the golden thread running throughout D&D’s all other editions has been cut. Thanks X box generation for that.

    The squares thing especially irked me – and thanks for pointing that out. Because we can’t possibly say ‘feet’. That’s too complex to say feet. I get the feeling it was some marketing nob who made the decision because people conducting combats in their hears without benefit of a battle map don’t move battle maps and so forth.

    Some things I liked. But by and large you know what it reminded me of? Baldur’s Gate … on playstation. Running around clicking your left front button selected “spell” power to do kewl stuff.

    It’s not D&D. It’s something else. Like you said if this was released on its own without the brand it would have had a minor review then sunk without a trace.

    I loved converting old modules and old NPC collections over to the new editions because every new edition was a step forward. This is one massive step back.

    3.5 had its problems – power creep through prestige classes being a core grumble of mine. But 4th ed basically replaced it with their special school inbred cousin Billy-bob.

    They got my $150 for the core books. That’s all they’re getting.

  • adamx20 // June 9, 2008 at 3:42 am | Reply

    In Response to Patrick:

    “An evolution of 3.5 which incorporated some of the balancing ideas of 4 would have been fine.”

    That’s what we are doing. That is what Pathfinder is doing. I think that is what everyone should be doing. After scanning through the 4e books I’ve formulated a basis for that idea. Taking the idea from Pathfinder that cantrips and orisons can be cast ‘at-will’ (pretty much), all the at will powers can be become a cantrip or orison; or we can give other classes a new name – i.e. ‘maneuver’

    The rest of the new class material can be translated as regular Feats or feats from Class Progression. I admit some of the material is nice … but giving the Rogue an exploit that basically pushes someone is outrageous. (i.e. Positioning Strike) I mean, what happened to the Player saying, “I want to ‘try’ and push the opponent.”? (AoO, Opposed Strength Check; that’s what I would do.)

    You can check my website and join this crew, or you can start your own crew. Either way you dice it, you should do the same. Hopefully we can all work together to create an Open Source or OGL version of 3.5+ (3.55, 3.65, 3.75, 3.78, etc…).

  • Brock // June 9, 2008 at 12:35 pm | Reply

    I’ve always hated derivative crap in D&D – when someone makes an adventure with monsters obviously taken from the movie Aliens, I don’t think “yay,” I think “boo.”

    Which adventure was that? Did you run it for us, or was that one that Scott ran?

    Anyway, “Wulf’s Animals” will be sticking with 3e for the foreseeable future, until we run out of material to run.

    I haven’t had the chance to read all the way through the 4e PHB yet. It’s hard for me to tell how a game will play until I’ve played it, so I’m reserving judgment for the time being.

  • McBard // June 9, 2008 at 5:32 pm | Reply

    “it’s nearly impossible to ‘pretend you’re there,’ and not just be playing a board game.”

    Agreed. After DMing one session of the Keep on the Shadowfell module, I felt like I had just played Robo Rally: what with all the pushing and scooting and bells and whistles going off from the various powers.

    I suppose this is an inaccurate analogy to base a negative criticism on: I actually like Robo Rally.

  • mxyzplk // June 9, 2008 at 6:18 pm | Reply

    @Brock – yeah, actually I think one of the other guys ran it. Derek maybe? For the rest of you who have no idea what we’re talking about, there was one of the early third party 3e scenarios which was an Aliens ripoff; I remember it unfondly. One of the guys in our Memphis gaming group ran it.

    I wonder if there’s a German word for “lame because it emulates something too much.” It could be used on many of the SciFi Channel movies.

  • Matthias Feser // June 10, 2008 at 6:12 am | Reply

    @mxyzplk: Actually, there is such a word. It is “Abklatsch”, for your pronouncing convenience think of it as written like “upclutch” :) .

    This word derises some object or thought as obviously fashioned to the likeness of a preexisting object or thought under the pretense of creative originality. It translates as rip-off / poor copy.

    As a technical term an “Abklatsch” is a cast taken from a flat surface.

    Matthias

  • mxyzplk // June 10, 2008 at 6:53 am | Reply

    I knew the Germans would come through with a single word for such a concept! Thanks Matthias!

  • Greyhawk Grognard // June 10, 2008 at 7:14 am | Reply

    Those wacky Germans have a word for everything. :-)

    I think McBard had the best analogy yet; RoboRally. Everything is so mechanical; you don’t describe your actions, you pick a power to deploy, just like selecting a card in your hand in RR. Plus thee battlemat/game board comparison…

    That doesn’t reflect poorly on RR at all, of course, because RR doesn’t _pretend_ to be anything other than a combat/race board game.

  • Jonny T // June 10, 2008 at 7:22 am | Reply

    I think 4e looks great. I can’t wait to switch from 3e. Also I am not a kid, I have never played a CCG, and I have never played WOW or any MMO.

    Sure there are big changes, but everything is nice and streamlined now, and GMming will be a breeze. Yes magic works differently, but Vancian casting sucked, so I’m not sad to see it go.

    There were identical reactions when 3e came out. It wasn’t D&D. It was awful. Now everyone is arguing that 3e *is* D&D.

  • mxyzplk // June 11, 2008 at 6:56 am | Reply

    I’m glad to see that I’m not just crazy, and that other people get the same impression off the new rules. And some people excuse it with “well, it can be houseruled…” But D&D is no longer the only game in town. When it was – yeah, you took it and made it work. But now I have to ask myself “Why would I do that work exactly?” In 1e, 2e, and 3e (and Basic set) I felt like there was enough cool core there to justify tweaking the bad parts. (Although even though I houseruled the crap out of 2e – adding Perception as a seventh stat, for example – I never felt the need to in 3e, except for a simplified skill mechanic eventually.)

    But reading 4e, I have the problem in that I don’t see the “soul” of D&D in there that would motivate me to put together a bunch of mods and forge forward with D&D. As I read through the thirty pages of combat legalese, I don’t think “neat!” as I read any individual bit, I just think “damn this is tedious.” And “Capture the Tedium!” isn’t a great marketing slogan.

  • elc // June 11, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply

    Well…I’m not one of “kids these days”. I’ve been playing d&d since the basic box with a dragon on it. I will admit to a couple of years on WoW, though :)

    So…4e looks totally amazingly awesome to my group. We’re all very excited. Of course, what we love are are the combats. When I’m running things I aim to spend 90% of the time in combat (not that I often achieve that kind of ratio, but it’s a great session when I do).

    To those of you griping about “roll-playing” (which doesn’t sound the least bit pejorative to me!) — well, we are the ones who need the rules. All the character stuff and story telling…well that’s where you need a decent dm, who shouldn’t need storytelling rules anyway!

    A little off track — I do remember that Pendragon managed to make personality more interesting in game terms by have stats and something akin to ‘challenges’ in order to decide how you wanted to act. So … yeah I liked it when the psychological aspect was made to involve dice-rolling, ha ha.

    Anyway, there is absolutely a d&d populace being catered to by the new rules, fyi :)

  • james dean // June 11, 2008 at 11:24 pm | Reply

    Listen, DnD will need to go online at some point, the technology is just getting too good.

    The rules need to be compatable with online play, Vancian spellcasting? doesn’t work online. Munchkin multi-classers? nope. fighters auto-attacking while wizards shoot lasers out of their behinds and belch fire?

    With DnD online they realized the rules as they stood, sucked for online play. The trick was, can we make dnd 4e a rules system that can be used online?

    Hopefully, they’ve done it, because Greyhawk online would rock.

  • james dean // June 11, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Reply

    It’s not that DnD4e is a WoW clone…it’s that if done right DnD4e could be the WoW killer.

  • Jeremy // June 12, 2008 at 8:18 am | Reply

    I’m always glad to see real gamers saying how awful this new edition is. I’ve been a loyal (and loving) fan of D&D since first edition. I wasn’t quite old enough to play the box sets, though I do own them.

    I have to admit, I’m horribly biased towards second edition, and resisted third edition with all my heart and sole…until I actually played it. Well, in the guise of Star Wars, but still…same mechanics. And I liked it. 3.5 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I’m not entirely sure why yet.

    Anyway, getting back on topic here, 4e is a flop. No matter what the sales will say, it’s a flop because there’s nothing about it I find interesting that aren’t possible with a couple of house rules in 3e, or even 2e. The focus on death being a primary factor for you to be intelligent has slowly drizzled away into a feeling that death is just a part of every adventurer’s daily commute to the next dragon’s lair.

    And I’m glad to see that, after the release, most of the “OMG!!itsSOsuperGOODmmmmmNOMNOMNOM!” reviews have started to dwindle away in favor of “WTF is this?” reviews. That means the old school gamers, who remember “save vs. death or die” are finally starting to reject WotC intervention in D&D. Or should I say WoDnD?

  • Luther // June 12, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Reply

    Actually, I played 3E for a while, but was never as satisfied with it as I wanted and ditched it completely when WFRP V2 came out (I’m a WFRP player from the old V1 days and it replaced D&D then as well).

    D&D 4E, whatever it is, is not D&D anymore, and we are not alone in saying that. Yesterday I went and picked up Castles & Crusades from my FLGS and the guy behind the counter was reading the new Core books and grimacing the entire time. He said he had to force himself to read them so he could answer customer questions, but like me, he thought WotC screwed the pooch on this one and was thinking of returning to WFRP.

    As for Castles & Crusades, I think I’ve finally found a version of D&D that I’m happy with. It’s like OD&D/AD&D 1e streamlined with the best ideas from 3E and a few other great ideas thrown in, sort of what a lot of people hoped 3E would be. Not only that, but it’s completely compatible with my old 1e stuff (only have to switch the AC around, so my Birthright campaign will live again!) AND the two core books only set me back $40. When it comes to needing my old school adventuring fix, I’m set for the forseeable future…

  • Fian3 // June 13, 2008 at 11:41 am | Reply

    I’m just a young player — I discovered RPGs only two years ago. But I had been a huge MMORPG fan for a couple years before that. Completely different experiences, and different groups of friends who gather to play. I love that D&D lets me create a character I can mold and guide; 4e seems really restrictive and seems to mimick my online gaming experiences. If I want to play an MMORPG, I will. I don’t want to waste my time duplicating that experience around a table with a pen and paper. Our group has decided to continue with 3e for the foreseeable future.

  • nix4 // June 13, 2008 at 1:22 pm | Reply

    Dungeons and Dragons Online didn’t change the game in order for better online play.

    Honestly, Neverwinter Nights does a better job of sticking to the rules that DDO just arbitrarily uses at a whim. DDO is such a diversion from the ruleset that I don’t think it should carry the label honestly. But as long as they have kobolds I guess its ok.

    Could DnD be put into a computer game and still follow the rules. Absolutely. Why they dont do it? Marketing and Money. DUH!

    There are applications like Fantasy Grounds out there that let you play the pnp game over the internet w/o sacrificing. Great product, only downside is its slower than a live game because some people go afk.

    There is allot of heat about 4e going around and my 2cp is that its too great of a diversion of what my vision is for fantasy. Giving a fighter magical abilities like the kind found in book of the nine swords is too much. Its now being turned into moreso into hack n slash game and less role playing and problem solving/character development.

    Well WoTC needs to make money too right? Thus Marketing…

  • Taigen // June 15, 2008 at 12:36 pm | Reply

    I disagree with your review on most of its points. Yes given the first 3 books out, its hard to run ‘classic’ games due to changes in the races/classes (though classes change so much between every edition that if you can’t get over the fact that your sorceror now is a warlock… your missing the point). Its not to hard to look at the back of the MM to get your classic races though, and noone says you have to let eladrin and dragonborn in your temple of elemental evil…
    As to whineing about squares… a square is still 5′… I know adding 5 and 5 can be difficult sometimes.. but really, is it so bad?

    On to vanceian… how was this not completely a game balanceing mechanic. How did you rp off suddenly forgetting spells cause you cast them… Fighter asks “why can’t you cast fireball again’.. oh its just to tireing.. METEOR SWARM.. Fighter ” woah.. that was huge… thought you were tired?

    The vancian system was also flawed in terms of game balance. Most DMs didn’t run 10 some encounters per day to actually run a mid-high level wizard out of spells, so the idea that haveing a limited amount of vastly more powerfull abilities balanced you to another class that had unlimited use of less powerful abilities was flawed logic. There was never a time for the fighter to shine, cause the wizard always had a few spells left that overshadowed his most powerfull abilities.

    4e fixed so much that the few things it lost along the way (and you can bet we will see them again after a few more books) can be easily forgiven. 4e is a huge step forward, and just cause it used a few things from MMOs that btw work very well to have both the feeling of power without it getting out of hand, doesn’t mean its ripping anything off. Many more RPGs then WOW have these same dynamics, and all WotC has done is make them work for pen and paper as well.

    D&D still has something MMOs will never have, and thats the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want in the game. Thats what makes 4e ten times better then WOW, and why I will be playing it instead of hideing from your level 69 priest.

  • Zachary D Smith // June 15, 2008 at 5:36 pm | Reply

    My impressions after starting my new campaign setting in 4E:

    - combat is fluid, interesting and FAST
    - there is far less paperwork to do as a DM
    - things get a little ‘arcadey’ at times in combat..

    In practice, here’s the comparison of my old 3/3.5 sessions to 4e. A 3.5 session would usually be one combat encounter which ate up the entire session, then meager time for plot advancement. At higher levels, we had encounters span more than one session, especially if the cleric or wizard had to fill out the dozens of spell islots prior. Vancian magic is a sacred cow that had to go. However, in 4E, combat goes so fast that we can have hours of NPC conversation, mysteries solved, lands explored, and still have several encounters.

    Also: minions are the best thing ever to happen to the game! Hordes upon hordes of goblins crashing against you in a wave! Zombies roaming the countryside in huge groups! And I don’t have to freakin’ track their hp!

  • adamflux // June 15, 2008 at 9:11 pm | Reply

    4E *is* indeed a different game from 3, and there are a lot of people with mixed thoughts on it. Here’s my take.

    4E is a heavily developed combat system lacking in nearly any roleplay rules of any kind, it’s written in the context of dungeon delving and combat, so things like craft are absent. Even paladins, long hamstrung by the LG alignment, are no longer so restricted. (And that’s neither good or bad, it creates all new concepts for how the class works, bane can have paladins and we don’t have to create a blackgaurd for it. just change the flavor.)
    I’m not happy about being bound to grids, but I have to admit that the combat spices up when the classes participate together with their abilities, and the grids do achieve the goal of simplified battles.
    My friends and I have played a three hour session, and I’ll tell you what, the only thing that changed in any dramatic way was the combat.
    Since there are no heavy roleplaying rules (and mind you this is playing without the DMG) we were able to have a game very similar to the one I remembered from all theses years. Outside of combat, everything was as it was, we were hunting for food and the others helped me with my nature check, and that was the only other real rule that we ran into, and it was blessedly easier than 3E, a simple over 10 rule. In short, we spent two and a half hours roleplaying and about 30 minutes in a single combat (by the end of which everyone understood how to play among a group of almost all newbies, a first for me).

    Now it’s true what you all say, combat is not as it was. However, I think you’ll find that- if you actually sit down and hear the game out- combat feels more like FF Tactics than world of warcraft. And this works out in fun ways. There’s nothing to keep you from doing all the things we loved before except boundaries that I see you creating for yourselves. For example, Fey Step has a 5 square teleport range. There are trees on the Shadowfell encounter maps. There is absolutely no rule saying that I am bound to the 2d map, or even to think in squares, but nearly everyone seems to be locked into that mindset already. The grids are tools to simplify distance and effect, not the be all and end all of what the world looks like, not a cage for your characters. So I teleported into a tree to throw spells from, and the kobolds were confounded. Later on, we had a conversation with a sage, and I ended up teleporting again (old man who never shuts up type) and later on yet I ended up using prestidigitation to foul the beer of a sour tavern wench. All the same stuff I was doing before, except that I can use magic more regularly, which is a taste issue. If the DM wanted me to use magic less frequently, we could actually do some cool roleplaying, like the people being afraid of the otherworldly powers rather than saying “Oh well, he’s thrown around two fireballs, he can’t have too many more, no need to call the guard.”
    It’s true, 4E doesn’t give you much in the way of roleplaying, but if you really are so dedicated to roleplay, you’ll remember that we don’t need rules for it, and that you can carry on just fine.
    As for character customization, 3E was originally pretty shallow on the point. It’s unfair to compare the two on that because all your basing off of is the multitude of supplements that have risen over the years. In the beginning, 3E was a shadow next to 2E Players Option, today, there are more 3E player supplements with optional rules than ever in the hobby.
    Don’t be bound to letting so-called professional game designers (who you all seem pissed at anyway) to bind you into ways of thinking and being creative that come only out of published works. To create Thil Thalad (tolkien fan) of the Winter Winds, I took a wizard, and defied their template, changed some spell descriptors (with DM approval) and came up with a level one frost mage who was a hell of a lot of fun to play. When you stop thinking “this class is for AOE and this spell is for single target” and start thinking “yeah, ice powers!” that sort of thing happens. I changed the Acid Arrow spell to a freeze arrow (”The kobold falls to the ground as a gathering layer of frost emanating from the icy arrow covers it’s shivering body”), and renamed all my spells with more interesting names, (ray of frost became Blades of the Winter Wind) and around the character my DM and I have evolved the idea of the Wizards of the Winter Winds, a secluded school of frost mages living deep in the feywild, commanded by a gheale of winter sorceress and seer.
    As with the beginning of 3E, there are no options forbidden to you, the books that hand you ideas on a platter simply haven’t been written yet, and if your either willing to wait for those supplements or – god forbid- do something creative yourselves, I think you’ll find that you can have the same experience as before. Backwards compatibility? I thought you didn’t want a video game clone and we’re using catchphrases that came out with the PS2.
    You wanna play a monk? What’s to keep you from renaming fighter skills and applying them to unarmed damage? What keeps your wizard from spending time and effort- a roleplaying function- researching the ritual to summon a familiar? Want a craft skill? Is your pencil broken or your character sheet just full? Back in my 2E days, we had to do all this kind of tweaking as well, it just took another twenty minutes where here it’s three. The point I am trying to make here is that the edition is not a failure in that it is a poor design, but rather that it is being compared to over ten years of predecessor by an audience got lazy in the wealth of ideas-on-a-plate, which 3E also had to compete with, except at that time, everyone was so desperate to get away from THAC0 that it didn’t matter. The difference here is that 3E is a perfectly viable system that is still fun to play, however 4E provides a quicker game in terms of mechanics, and if you’re interested in getting through the dice and into the story quicker, there you are. 3E has the advantages of a vast library of supplements, and highly detailed and customizable description system with with many are familiar, so if you want that gritty detail instead of fast and loose rules with more story, then have at it.
    It seems to me that the majority of complaints are coming from rules lawyers who have read the books from cover to cover without actually sitting down to play. Yes, you horrible creatures of the dark, a whole new rule set will keep your wolf pack off us art-players for a while, and even when you do get it all memorized, this edition isn’t complex or arcane enough for you to spend twenty minutes debating the benefits and requirements of flanking with us anymore. Flanking happens in ways that are dramatically appropriate and mechanically simple. And the Wish ritual works however I want it to. ha ha.
    Last, no matter what you think of the other things I’ve said here, one point I’m going to be very clear on, and that’s art complaints. This is supposed to be a community of creative, imaginative individuals, cookie cutter thinking like that is what makes white-wolf-only gamers scoff at d&ders. If your imaginations bind you to the illustration of a monster drawn in a book, then clearly an MMO where they all look alike is where you belong, where other people dictate the world and it’s creatures to you. If you still want willowy forest women for dryads, then you may still see that in your minds eye- if you can.

    And for the record, when it came out, I made all the same defenses for 3E, “you don’t need Players Option and granted powers to do excorsim, just say that your turn undead applies to demons.”

  • bananular // June 16, 2008 at 11:56 am | Reply

    it seems to me there’s a lot of “AAWWWRGGGHHHHHH I HATE 4E BLARGH YOU SHOULD TOO GRAAHHHHH” going on here, first of all, and I think the asshats who figure it’s their job to tell everyone how to play dungeons and dragons need to get off their high horses and look at this from a new player/old, bored player perspective. if you’re dissatisfied with 3e, 4e is a much better alternative to look at. it’s faster, easier to pick up and play, you don’t have to spend hours planning your dungeons out only to have the pcs say “hey, lets go through this happy forest” and ignore the crap out of all of your hard work. seriously, me and my buddy cameron got on the phone with a couple of friends last night at like 9:00 with NOTHING to start up a session, and by 10:30 we had 6 characters, four dungeons, and an entire adventure planned. we were finally done, after hours of laughter and fun, by about 4am. and you know what? only one player in the group had been playing dungeons and dragons for more than a month. that adventure kicked so much more ass than what any of the people in my game had come up with during the whole duration of our 3.5 experience. honestly, we kinda suck at the whole rules-learning stuff. we weren’t certain after two weeks how to make a 3.5 character, much less an adventure. I freakin dmed a 5-hour session last night that gave us so much joy, and I picked up the rulebooks and read for an hour in prep time.

    so maybe you hate 4e because it’s not d&d. maybe it betrays some crucial part of 3.0 or 3.5 that you loved. but if you say to yourself, “hey, this is fun, let’s play a different game!” 4th edition is undefeatable as a fun, person-to-person sort of game that the impersonal, mechanical, “cyber-sex”-esque computer game just can’t match. it retains the interaction, without all the hassle of rules crunches, and yet gives you a speedy, easy to understand format to express what you’re doing without needing a computer screen to tell you or an apparently shitty dm to fail at attempting to help you roleplay. plus, it clearly took you guys less than a week to learn the rules so deeply inside-and-out that you can make educated complaints, so either you have too much free time or it really is ridiculously easy to learn and play ;)

  • the only haven you can trust » Patch Day // June 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm | Reply

    [...] not going to review 4e; there are plenty of other reviews out there, which pretty much cover all the major points without straying into [...]

  • Luther // June 17, 2008 at 7:15 pm | Reply

    So if you don’t like 4e, you’re an Asshat, hm?

    It’s great that you think 4e ROXXORZ!1!, but no need to get your knickers in a twist and get insulting because there are those of us who dislike the paradigm shift from ‘the original fantasy RPG’ to CCG/MMO/BG for the ‘Kewl Powerz’ set or whatever paradigm WotC have shifted the brand over to now.

    The whole point made in this blog entry is not whether the game is ‘better/worse’ than’ or ‘more/less difficult’ or even ‘fun/not fun.’

    The point made is that it is not a game that depends heavily on verisimiltude and role-play, but rather a game that depends on being ‘balanced to the Nth Degree’ and havign lots of minitures to move around. One example of this design philosophy: most of the ‘powers’ make no sense in a role-playing environment and seem to exist solely to facilitate moving minatures about in a neat way.

    Not only that but the powers are all pretty much the same in everything but name and the classes have all been blanded out in the name of ‘making everyone as equal as possible in combat.’ It’s like the RPG version of communism.

    I accept the fact that others might find this fun. I don’t and niether do many others. Enough ‘others,’ in fact, to make me wonder if WotC might have misunderstood the ramifications of trying to draw in people who would rather sit and just play a MMO, let the computer do all the hard work and just get down to the business of whacking things and going on ‘runs’ into ‘quest areas,’ while alienating the older players who make up the lions share of their niche market.

    I played 3e until I saw the direction it was going and 3.5 pretty much hung it up for me. I thought I’d get into 4e, but then I read the books and said, ‘This isn’t D&D to me, this is a bloody videogame that makes me do all the work.’

    No thanks, I’ll stick to WFRP and C&C. If I want to play a minatures game, I’ll stick to WFB or any number of boardgames in my closet and if I want to be part of the vidiot generation, I’ll start a WoW account, but there’s no way I’m spending $100 on psuedo-D&D…

  • Jeremy // June 18, 2008 at 7:40 am | Reply

    Taigan:

    On to vanceian… how was this not completely a game balanceing mechanic. How did you rp off suddenly forgetting spells cause you cast them… Fighter asks “why can’t you cast fireball again’.. oh its just to tireing.. METEOR SWARM.. Fighter ” woah.. that was huge… thought you were tired?

    Just thought I’d enter my two cents in here on this. For starters, there are such things as “material components”, which, once they are exhausted, casting the spell is impossible. You could use that theory and say “you’re out of bat guano.” Or however you spell it…the primary component for Fireball. I forget what the material component for Meteor Swarm is, but I’m sure it’s much more than batsh*t.

    But, since there are spells with no material components, I take it one step further. All mages carry two spell books: a reference book which is huge and bulky, and a combat one, which is small and magical. When he ‘memorizes’ spells, what he does instead is casts the spell into his magical book, which uses a page. Script appears on the page, and allows the caster to read it out, loosing its magical power on unsuspecting people. He also prepares his material components in a pouch on his belt, for easy access. His level (and previous experience) tells him how many spells should be sufficient for one day. Thus, a first level (and quite naive) mage would think a single first level spell sufficient, while a 20th level (and highly experienced mage) would prepare more.

    This idea even works in 3e and 3.5e with wizards getting more spells per level than in 2e, since it’s intelligence based. A smarter wizard would prepare more than a less intelligent wizard.

    There are ways a good DM can justify Vanceian spell casting, and have it make sense.

  • Applecrow88 // June 19, 2008 at 1:57 pm | Reply

    “4e Brings Balance! Now the other classes have a chance to shine!”

    Sorry, if you are letting the mage do all the work you are not playing your class to the hilt. Make called shots, pull off crazy stunts. I play Hackmaster (KenzerCo.) and the fighter rogue in our party could totally waste my druid/mage if he wanted to. Not because of rules, or powers, or munchkin uber-builds; because he effin knows how to play his character to the hilt. If we were on an adventure and i blew all my spells every 2-3 encounters and then begged for a rest, the party would spike me in a room and continue on. If this is how you are playing and whining about batman mages then its not the ruleset thats the problem. 4e simply gives everyone an excuse to blow their dailies and encounters, spike themselves in the room and rinse repeat.

    Balance? The new Wraith is nothing but a block of pulp stats and abilities, now that save v. die is gone (4e players are cowards, there i said it). I remember back when the logical answer to coming across a Wraith was to effin run. By the way, RAW it is better in 4e to let a wraith kill you. Seriously. “Whenever a Humanoid is slain by a (x type)wraith it is raised as a FREE-WILLED (x type) wraith on its creator’s next turn.” WTF so now i have a good reason to seek out wraiths and get killed by one. Now i have undead bonus’, some new at will abilities, and because monsters can be leveled now and i’m free willed, i’ll just keep on truckin. Sweet now i’m an xp-mine, because every monster i get killing blow on creates another monster in its place. Or, as a DM, i have the BBEG Kobold Shaman bind a wraith, now when the party shows up i have it kill my own loyal minions and voila, TPK.

    I seriously believe that the designers of 4e deliberately castrated the wizard just to laugh at him. All of the iconic spells of earlier editions are pathetic. They shouldn’t have even left cloudkill and disintegrate in with the way they trashed them.

  • KnightQC // June 19, 2008 at 8:29 pm | Reply

    I’ve been playing 2nd edition for a long time (never went to 3rd, didn’t like it) and I think 4th looks great.

    What I disliked about 2nd edition was the level vs power of classes… Level 1 to 6-7, warrior were THE rulers. If you had a warrior in the group, he was the one dealing damage. Level 9 to 18 was now mage level, where the spells got so strong it was a joke. There was also a flaw with THACO vs AC, where player could pick stuff and hit EASILY a lot of monsters at level 8-9.

    For 3rd edition, only experience I had is NWN2, which had me take a LONG text file to make a good rogue/assassin build. This is a matter of taking the right level at the right time with the right skill to own. I’m not a “I WANNA BE UBER” player and hate people doing it, so 3rd edition is out.

    In 4th edition, every classe is strong at every level. Players doesn’t die from 1 attack at level 1 if they are unlucky. Taking skill is easy and you can’t combine bonuses to OWN EVERYONE. There is a LOT of combat options (warrior doesn’t have to attack with weapon, attack with weapon, attack with weapon)…

    I bought the book and will play that edition for sure :) I think it’s a new D&D that everyone will adapt with their way of playing.

  • Songwind // June 19, 2008 at 8:50 pm | Reply

    I have been playing / DM’ing for around 25 years now and remember the red box fondly. That said, I would rather retire than play 4E.

  • Hilli // June 23, 2008 at 2:00 am | Reply

    It’s the incompatibility issue that bothers me most. What will I tell my players in an FR campaign when they want to play a dragon born? What about the gnome PCs? Do they just vanish?

    Are there any conversion rules at all?

    This is the least successful D&D project since a certain cartoon series …

    See my 4E review “Everyone’s A Wizard Now” at

    http://www.evilhell.net/?p=635

  • Shadai // June 25, 2008 at 3:20 pm | Reply

    I find whats the most interesting is not really the review, or the posters opinions. Its the ever living, breathing, crying, dying, drama, love, hate, backlash that is the internet’s worldwide soapbox.

    I mean really people.

    4E sucks cause its different from 3e.

    Srsly?

    If thats all you got, go back to 3.5. You know, the version they didn’t have right the first time, so that they could sell you all the same books with minor rules tweaks. You know, when the rules tweaks that by themselves weren’t enough to warrant the next jump. You remember the drama. I’m sure you can search the net for all the whining, crying and bitching by EVERYONE and their brothers about having to buy all the books over again and this is not fair and blah blah, WotC die of VD and rot in hell.

    Damn. Does nothing satisfy you?

    Worse then that is all the fools who get on here to bitch and moan about nothing. You don’t like it? Fine. Fix it. Make up your own rules. Pencil in your own names for abilities. Wait for them to release more supplemental books. Or don’t. Go back to 3.5 where you can make your super-tricked-out-character-and-bend-the-rules-to-your-will. Just don’t come here bitching about how you happened to roll a 1 and got killed by a save-or-die effect. Cause that helps foster good RP when the character you’ve spent so much time, energy and experience on just up and dies without asking. Very rude.

    Personally, I like most of the changes. I like that rogues are now ACTUALLY useful against undead. Or that every class has a heal mechanic but it doesn’t take away the usefulness of a cleric. Or that the fighter can actually tank so the mobs don’t just ignore him or I as the DM have to ROLL A DIE to figure out who the random fool is that is about to be attacked by the bout of randomness the monster is suddenly experiencing.

    That doesn’t mean I like them all. I personally don’t like the removal of gnomes as a player race. But the funny thing is, I CAN STILL PLAY THEM. Oddly enough they still appear in the back of the Monsterous Manuel.

    So my advice is to not listen to me or anyone else for that matter. Look it over yourself, then make your own informed decision. Cause any character that lets themselves be railroaded is the fault of both the idiot who feels he has the real pulse of the situation going on, and the other guy for listening.

    Enjoy 4E! Or not. Whatever you decide.

  • mxyzplk // June 25, 2008 at 4:25 pm | Reply

    @Shadai – the main problem with your line of reasoning is that it assumes D&D is the only RPG in existence. It’s not.

    4e isn’t bad because it’s “different” from 3e. It does, however, make design and implementation decisions that are bad IMO.

    Someone should only spend time fixing up 4e if that’s likely to be better than just using some other game – 3e, a 3e variant like pathfinder, or another game altogether (Savage Worlds, Eldritch, etc).

    Sure, I encourage everyone to make up their own mind, but I think it’s a little retarded to say “Buy all three books, then play them for months, then make up your mind!” That’s a used car salesman’s dream pitch. How about I do some logical analysis first to see if it’s good enough to even try out?

  • Shadai // June 25, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply

    Actually, it doesn’t. Read Carefully.

    If you don’t like D&D, don’t play it. Play whatever your heart desires. If L5R is your bag, who am I to bash it? If you really like World of Darkness, Why would I come out and try to convince you not to like it?

    If you don’t want to “Fix” it, as you suggest, then don’t. Play something else. Play 3E. I don’t care. Neither does anyone else.

    “Sure, I encourage everyone to make up their own mind, but I think it’s a little retarded to say “Buy all three books, then play them for months, then make up your mind!” That’s a used car salesman’s dream pitch. How about I do some logical analysis first to see if it’s good enough to even try out?”

    Thoughts:

    1. I’m not a used car salesman (my poor attempt at humor, sorry)
    2. I never said that. Once. Not even close.
    3. Logical analysis does not include listening to random people’s opinion. What qualifies the random person’s rants and thoughts? Who are they to bash/praise the book? What makes them know more then someone else? No one stops to think of these things. Listen to people you trust, or, better yet, read it yourself. If you don’t want to go and buy the books, borrow them from a friend. Or steal em from the net. Whatever blows your skirt up.

    I welcome your opinion as to you thinking the design is bad. Fine. Just don’t try to tell everyone that you are right and everyone else is wrong. That’s not logical analysis. That’s not even a good opinion. Its the same crap that pervades the internet that makes this such a soapbox for everyone to bitch about nothing.

    Besides, its just like the internet, all cycles. First there is a buzz about how awesome something is, then its released and the backlash/bashing begins as everyone thinks it sucks, then like a few months later everyone backlashes the backlash and its “not as bad as everyone thought”.

    If you think I’m making commentary about 4e, read carefully. 4e is just the medium I’m using to make a larger, more interesting point that your missing entirely.

  • mxyzplk // June 25, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Reply

    If you don’t think people should share their analyses and opinions of things, why the hell are you reading someone’s blog anyway?

    Anyway, I like to think my opinions in my 4e writeups are fairly well reasoned. “Opinion” does not mean “arbitrary.” We all choose the people we trust, and often in this Internet age we choose to trust people on the Net whose inclinations seem to be similar to ours and whose analyses seem cogent.

    Anyway, it’s a silly argument to have, because by your reasoning you shouldn’t be posting Internet comments trying to get people to listen to you either. “My opinion is that people shouldn’t listen to your opinion because opinions are worthless!” is a pretty old and wearisome logical fallacy.

  • Endgamer // June 26, 2008 at 5:19 am | Reply

    I like D&D 4th edition. It is not perfect, however it is fun. I ran 3.5 edition a while back with an evil campaine and burnt myself out on D&D altogether.
    I had a group of 6 people together from level 3 to level 24 and after a while combat and the likes just got tedious. I had fighters making 5 attacks. Wizards with spells that required somewhere in lue of 20 D6s to roll.
    4th edition has got me playing D&D again. While the faces have changed I don’t think its terrible. I have never shoved myself into one realm or another in terms of D&D realms like forgotten realms and it’s ilk. I take everything and make it my own. So its overarching line makes little diffrence to me. I like to read what they are doing with it but then I go off and dream my own stuff up instead.
    Abilities are a bit combat thick with little outside of it, but now I can have a fighter with skills. Not just the few points I desperately put into spot to make sure I’m not ambushed. I can have knowledge skills and what not to show my character has been fairly worldly.
    Lastly I like some of the shoving and knock back rules. In some cases they make sense. My halfling rogue is not going to be able to muscle an orc into that pit trap (let alone an ogre) however I can force him into it through combat positioning and the right kind of feints.
    While I dislike things that force me to use a game board to keep track of things I still use a gameboard for combat in almost every other system I run. Its easier to keep up with combat positions and show room sizes. The imagination is what fills in the rest.
    All and all I give it a thumbs up. Combat is fun though a board is basically required. I like the skill system. Much broader and less inhibiting by class then it was in the past. Give it a whirl. It’s not the best it could be but having played many RPG systems since I was 12 I can certainly say its far from the worst.

  • Bill Castello // June 27, 2008 at 10:34 am | Reply

    I wrote a pretty long rant about DnD 4e on my blog, where I try to characterize the 4E haters. They’re generally, the min-maxers, the 40 year old virgins and the folks who missed the point all along. To me, the best part about 4E is the idea that it boils down to roleplaying again. Gne is the ability to make the wu-jen/ninja/anti-paladin/sorceror who wears plate. Now, you have to RP a little bit. Build a bridge and get over it.

    The 2E holdouts are my faves. have a good read, enjoy!

    Bill

    http://web.mac.com/phantomtbird/Sloth_Central_v5.1/The_Raving_Rant/Entries/2008/6/13_Dungeons_%26_Dragons%2C_4th_Edition.html

  • Epic Healer // June 27, 2008 at 5:09 pm | Reply

    I have all the core books. I am enjoying reading them but I agree with many of you. This is not D&D, AD&D or anything close to it. This actually is a new game. I still have all my old D&D and AD&D books from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Ed. and I think, in the end, I will be going back to the ol’ 2ed. I liked it better. I was always the AD&D Variant guy. So, now that I have all these books, I have materials to pull from. The 4th ed. is fine for new players. Folks that never played before. For us experienced players, the old books are where I would go back to.

  • Epic Healer // June 27, 2008 at 5:11 pm | Reply

    I forgot to comment on the Combat stuff. I do like how so many things are taken into account but in the end, I truly do HATE having to figure out so many bits and pieces. Give me a few numbers and my dice. If there are some numbers to add, then my question to the player will be simple. ” what is the magical bonus your item gives you?”. heh heh

  • Thegreenman // July 2, 2008 at 8:28 pm | Reply

    This has been an interesting read, especially the comments. I’m a very long time intermittent D&D player. I must admit I still have nostalgic reverence for 1e. That’s what drew me to Castles and Crusades. it brings back the old feel without the min/maxing.

    I never enjoyed 3e as the rules were too tedious. The munchkins and rules lawyers drove me mad.
    having just bought the 4e phb yesterday and creating two characters last night, I agree that this isn’t D&D, it may be what some people
    are looking for, but not me. IMO They should have called it Draconics and Demonics.

    The good thing is that now there are so many good alternatives out there. Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder, Epic rpg, Lejendary Adventure, True20 and even the old guys Gurps and Rolemaster. If you like the new D&D fine, if not move on, I did.

  • Luther // July 2, 2008 at 10:18 pm | Reply

    The real problem isn’t ‘moving on.’ The real problem is reading a review in which an authour doesn’t like the game or simply commenting that you’d prefer to spend your money on and play something else. God forbid it shouldn’t be to your taste, because you’ll get ripped a new one in the comments section as the 4e cheering section takes you apart. They’re like friggin’ piranha.

    Really. And it’s usually the same lot shouting down anyone who disagrees with the idea that 4e was handed down from WotC like the Ten Commandments from God.

    The game isn’t D&D anymore and the game that is there isn’t really any different from Descent, outside of the fact that Descent is easier to play and comes with an assload of models, dungeon tiles, cards and other material, and all for cheaper than the three core books (which now require minis and dungeon tiles to play properly as wel las a tone of notecards to keep track of al lthe friggin powers). Considering that, and the fact that the 4e fanatics are so odious I’ve been totally put off of the idea of anything with the D&D label, I’d rather get Descent and Road to Legends instead…

  • alias // July 7, 2008 at 12:18 pm | Reply

    I’m going to quote what I wrote on Bill Castello’s blog:

    “2nd remains my favourite but you know what? That’s actually mostly because of the wide mix of different settings. Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Birthright, and even goddamn Mystara. I’m a settings whore. I liked 3rd Edition alright as well, even though I never actually played it, I kept up with some of the books and have a few friends who used it. I liked how it updated some things (wizards can now HOLD swords) while keeping a lot of the flavour, mythology and cosmology intact, even if they did gut Planescape.

    I tried 4th Edition a few weeks ago and it just doesn’t seem to have as much personality to me. It’s not the rules changes that turned me off really (although I didn’t like certain things, like marking) it’s what I saw as an almost complete removal of the old school flavour that I liked. It’s not a big deal to me though, I still have my books and I can look at them and play a game set in Greyhawk or Sigil or Taladas anytime I want to.

    And hey, I like new editions of many RPGs myself. I liked the Rifts Ultimate Edition (even if it was not really a new edition, more like D&D 3.5) I like the new(er? is it still being supported?) Pendragon much more than the old one. In fact the only other game where I completely do not like the new edition is White Wolf’s WoD, and that’s also for flavour/setting reasons.

    Enjoy 4th Edition, I’m glad you do, and you doing it doesn’t spoil my fun.”

    Basically I think a lot of the people who don’t like 4th Edition just don’t like the new flavour.

  • Dave // July 31, 2008 at 10:36 am | Reply

    Spot on – the best critique yet of 4.0 from an older, experienced gamer who knows the previous editions of Dnd well. I second this line of thought. I agree completely with the original post. I almost thought “Did I write this, lol”

    FYI: For my DND gaming Im going with either pathfinder or 3.5 with monte cooks book of experimental might. If I want to play WOW, Ill play WOW online, not with books………

  • Reflections on D&D 4e Love & Hate « MadBrewLabs // August 1, 2008 at 9:55 am | Reply

    [...] blogs like these two posts (here & here) on Chatty DM, Critical Hits, and another two posts (here & here) on Geek Related.  Hell, just Google or Cuil (a new hip search engine!) “4e [...]

  • Wraith // August 7, 2008 at 3:12 pm | Reply

    4th ed. is just another RPG with a D&D logo plastered on it. I’ve never in my 28 years of playing rpg’s picked up a rules set and thought “Hey this is perfect!”. I’ve always tweaked the rules to suit my desires and am doing the same with 4th ed. Am I going to shelve my 3.5 books? No. But I’m not going to soil myself over the complete rewrite in 4th ed. either. It’s just another game to have fun with. Play what you want and stop being a bunch of pissy babies.

  • Mad Brew Labs » Reflections on D&D 4e Love & Hate // October 17, 2008 at 8:46 am | Reply

    [...] blogs like these two posts (here & here) on Chatty DM, Critical Hits, and another two posts (here & here) on Geek Related.  Hell, just Google or Cuil (a new hip search engine!) “4e [...]

  • Cadis // November 10, 2008 at 3:52 pm | Reply

    This is why i’m going to attempt to create DnD 3.9
    I play a pen and paper RPG, because it ISN’T A COMPUTER GAME THAT IS BASED ON CODE AND NOT ON IMAGINATION.

  • Sadras // January 8, 2009 at 4:02 am | Reply

    I’m from South Africa and I have been playing DnD for 20 years now, using as a basis the Mystara setting – mostly DMing and this is my take as well as the others of my crew:
    4E rules are actually quite good – (we’ve played). Its actually a lot more solid than 3.5, it requires less tweaking. As for the Gnomes and other classes – they’re coming out be patient (and as someone already mentioned they’re in the MM at the back).

    The main issue most experienced gamers have with the new edition is 1) that not enough time has passed since the last edition – we havent had our fill – we’re still enjoying the multitude of options we have available from 3.5 – we as players havent had the time to try out even 50% of all that has been released and already a new edition with new look is upon us. 2) the new system is that completely new, not an update or an improvement but a fresh variant system with an old name. We’re not used to it – resistance to change is understandable 3) and with point 2 is the fact that the new system doesnt support all the dnd literature that came before it – the novels, the settings…etc Everything we grew up with – can you imagine Raistlin in 4E. Difficult!

    In my opinion 2nd Edition had the soul of DnD with a system that required much needed tweaking, but the spirit of DnD was strong with rich detailed classes and monsters. 3 and 3.5 was an improved system which eventually lost the plot with their over commercial zealousness – and its too much room for lawyering and combat time, but still maintained the fun aspect, 4E is balanced, simplified and scientific – and it encourages co-op and synergy between players like never before (in combat), its greatest flaw is that it is the creation of a souless cold system of WoW one which a DnD player of old can never align to – even though the mechanics work fine.

    4E is arrogant in that it ignores all previous fantasy literature – it doesnt compliment, it stands alone, yet it is classified as DnD.

    The system is good but different, Im still quietly developing a 3.5 4E mix played with the soul of 2nd Ed. Wish me luck!

  • hitnrun // February 2, 2009 at 11:32 pm | Reply

    “if you’re dissatisfied with 3e, 4e is a much better alternative to look at. it’s faster, easier to pick up and play”

    If you can honestly say that 4E is faster than…well, anything you can think of, God bless you.

    About the only thing that’s fast about 4E for anyone of my experience is learning the rules, and that’s because there’s only one rule and it’s “try to remember all the modifiers applying to you this round before you roll”.

  • Anonymous // February 6, 2009 at 6:58 am | Reply

    Just had to post with a comment to Applecrow that if your group really could beat the druid/mage (what a terrible choice of classes btw) that the druid/mage is a complete idiot. You are also an idiot if you’d just ’spike’ a character for wanting to rest, and for wanting to be killed by a wraith. You’re a bad roleplayer.

    Oh and most of you are grognards with no imagination. I said it.

  • Most Games Have a Purpose // February 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm | Reply

    Wow for MMORPGS
    D&D 1, 2 or 3 for roleplay
    Puerto Rico/ Power Grid for boardgames
    D&D 4e for scrappers to recycle the paper for worthy games

  • Ron Ferraro // February 26, 2009 at 1:51 pm | Reply

    Speaking as a gamer since the 1st edition, and a retailer who earns a living from the sale of RPG products, 4e to me is a failure in all respects. The best thing to come of 4e is that all my OOP 3.5 books started selling like hotcakes. Scratch that.. nobody really knows what that means in sales figures; 3.5 books started selling like Cabbage Patch Kids in December of 1985. Now I’m all sold out, can’t get any more, and I got only 4e books coming out and sitting unsold on the shelf, looking forlorn. I actually had a girl come in a couple weeks ago, buy a 4e DM’s Guide, then bring it back later that day saying its not the one she wanted. She didn’t know the difference at first, but then she said she wanted the “old one.” Luckily, I found a distributor that had 5 copies of the 3.5 DMG left, and I was able to snatch them all up. She’s happy now, and I sold two more 3.5 DMGs just yesterday. 4e books just sit.

    Now, as a DM, I absolutely loathed running last year’s Worldwide D&D Game Day with 4e. Hobgoblins with 38 hit points? It seriously took an hour and a half to resolve one encounter with 4 1st level characters against two hobgoblins. Miss, miss, miss, hit, 4 damage (everybody still has 20+ hp left), someone starts to get low on life, healing surge, everybody’s full again, hobgoblin misses, hobgoblin gets hit, he takes 6 damage, he’s at 28 now, miss, miss, miss… yawn, yawn, snore.

    This is how it should go: Quick! Roll initiative and get the drop on them! Fighter swings first, takes off one hobgob’s arm; that’s what I call a disarm attempt!~ The wizard drops a daze cantrip on the other one so the cleric can grapple him without suffering an AOO, and the cleric then holds down the gobby while the rogue lays down the coup de grace. Whimpering and moaning, the one-armed hobglob tries to make a run for it, but the fighter whips out a throwing axe and lobs it at the back of his head, shattering his skull. One round- OVER. Next!

    What they did was try to make 1st through third levels more interesting by beefing everything up, when all they really did was make you spend more time fighting stupid hobgoblins and orcs. We all know that what we really want to do is kill beholders and ride on the backs of dragons, so the quicker we get to that point, the happier we’ll all be.

    Also, the 4e wizard is about as intelligent as a bag of hammers. So the party stops at a deep, narrow gorge that can’t easily be crossed, it’s just too far to jump, about 30 feet wide. The wizard says, “I think I have a spell for this,” and he promptly casts Freezing Cloud. “Hmm… cold doesn’t seem to work on this gorge, perhaps a Flaming Sphere will do the trick.” Fwoosh! nothing. “Egad! This gorge is similarly immune to fire! Perhaps if I put it to sleep first…” sleep spell, “There. That seems to have done the trick. It’s completely docile now, captain. With a utility jump spell I can even add a square to your movement, should you dare to leap across. Of course you’ll need to already have the ability to leap 5 squares on your own…”

    “What is a square, wizard? What are these obscure measurements you riddle me with?”

    4e is an excellent combat system that works. However, it is an excellent combat system that works outside of the realm of fantasy role-playing. In here, with our gamer’s imaginations, the system is too confining, too pre-optimized. There are character builds which just obviously work better than others, and those are the ones that will be used, over and over. Unfortunately, they are not based on any previous fantasy literature or even on any previous editions of D&D. These new archetypes, like the Dragonborn Warlord or the Tiefling Warlock seem more like classic villains than heroes of any kind. It’s hard to imagine characters like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Elric of Melnibone or even Elminster of Shadowdale ever fitting in with this edition.

    Finally, the books seem to be written for morons: “Play a Dragonborn if you want… to look like a dragon.”

    I rest my case.

  • Wedge // February 26, 2009 at 2:30 pm | Reply

    I hesitated to buy 4th edition, but I finally took the plunge and could not be happier. The rules are streamlined and consistent across the board. Once you “know” how to play 1 class then you know how to play them all. And I for one am completely and utterly happy that they “fixed” Wizards. They were so grossly underpowered at low levels and then overpowered to the point of ridiculousness in the upper levels in 3rd edition that I actually considered banning them from my game at one point because nobody wanted to play anything but.

    To me, once we got passed the differences and just let the mechanics work, it felt more like it did when I was a kid leading my neighbors and brothers through the beginning adventure in the back of the blue book. The fun was back and the accounting system was gone.

    I’ve played wow (and many other MMOGs) and yes it is quite interesting how many correlations can be drawn with that style of game. But I guess I might be in the minority as one who welcomes the evolution of D&D and is glad the “spreadsheet required” part is all gone now.

    And aren’t you glad that there is zero mention of Drizz’t? I mean come on! Put that cow out to pasture already!

  • mxyzplk // February 27, 2009 at 3:10 pm | Reply

    @Wedge – 4e lovers, 4e haters, that’s one thing we can all agree on. Death to Drizz’t.

  • Rancher!! // March 2, 2009 at 6:30 am | Reply

    Hey, I might as well add my 2cp. Well, i do admit that the rules are optimized and that they are all balanced. However, at least for now, 4e lacks the customization of 3x. I as a GM find 4e too constraining and while all the classes are balanced, the casting classes lack the utility spells that once made them useful. 4e appears to be mainly combat-based.

    Now, my group of players once went three full sessions in 3.5e without going into a single combat encounter. There are otehr times when the entire session is nothing but combat encounters. Though, we do tend to game for, roughly, 72 hours straight then crash and repeat it all again the next week.

    We’ve recently started to play in the WoD. mostly as whatever we want to play as. While the D10 system is sleek in the fact that it can go into any setting and make any character you want and still be balanced, it lacks the fine details that 3.5e had and 3.5e lacks the sleek balance of 4e. No system is perfect, just find one that suites yourself and be done with it.

    3.5e Rulez!

  • none // March 3, 2009 at 10:48 am | Reply

    Wedge is an employee of WOTC, or a designer of the game. What a suckered little pu$$y.

    4E is not D&D..and I hated it the moment the first details emerged. Most commentators know absolutely nothing about reviewing and said, “Oh this is great!” “Hey what a great idea” when it was anything BUT…makes me sick

  • Andy Bates // March 4, 2009 at 1:45 am | Reply

    Wedge: “Once you ‘know’ how to play 1 class then you know how to play them all.”

    Wait a second…and that is supposed to be a GOOD thing?? Whatever happened to different classes having different playstyles and abilities? Now with 4e, every class is the same. Sure, wizards have “spells” and fighters have “feats,” but they are all just the same thing with different names. They gave every character the equivalent of spells, so that every class is special. And when everyone is special, no one is.

  • Steve // March 4, 2009 at 3:20 pm | Reply

    I hesitate to comment, since if “none” decides to jab back, I’ll inevitably be pointed to as a WotC spy (I’m not, I swear).

    @Andy: No one class should be better than the others. That wasn’t the point in any edition. It’s why they gave wizards d4s for HPs in most editions and why in 4E they still get less for HPs, though it is harder to kill them at 1st level. There was never any grand plan that new players would play rogues and fighters, well-versed players would play mages/sorcerors and that the punk who started playing 3 sessions after everyone else got stuck being the cleric. Every edition has tried to make the classes more equitable, though not the same. I would argue that 4E has made them as equitable as possible, though I would concede that to many the classes now seem too similar and so now people don’t get to feel as special when they play the party mage.

    Maybe they went too far. Maybe it doesn’t suck to be the fighter in the group now. To be honest, if you want a game to be universally played(as WotC should as a business), introducing a learning curve is not going to help. Thus the simplification (or over-simplification, if you prefer) of the rules.

    In my opinion, play what you like to play. If 3.x floats your boat or even earlier editions, go nuts.

  • Andy Bates // March 4, 2009 at 3:44 pm | Reply

    @Steve: Yes, the classes DO seem very similar now, which was my point. I have no problem with classes being balanced, with benefits and drawbacks to each. But they should at least FEEL different, and when every class has at-will spell-like powers, they all feel the same.

    And again, I never thought that the difference between a fighter and a mage had to do with the expertise of the player. It had more to do with that player’s preferences and playstyle. Some people like to be the unstoppable juggernaut, while others prefer to be the glass cannon flinging magical energy around. But with 4e, everyone has those “special powers.”

    And I’m sorry, but why do you need a special attack to (say) knock someone back with your shield? Whatever happened to role-playing? Whatever happened to, “Okay, I’m going to charge this guy with my shield and push him into a pit”? Marking, attacks of opportunity, healing surges…they all seem designed to make the system more gamey, and less fantasy-realistic. You shouldn’t need instructions printed on a card to figure out that you can charge someone.

  • mxyzplk // March 4, 2009 at 4:42 pm | Reply

    I do dislike how “the same” the classes are now. As a player, I don’t feel like I’m getting a different experience with a different one.

    Also, isn’t learning curve one of the things people love about D&D? And World of Warcraft, for that matter? A lot of the satisfaction WoW players (I’m not hating, I was one of them) get is not from purely levelling and getting treasure, it’s from mastery – you start being a PvE noob, then you get decent at PvP, then you do endgame instances, then you get into raiding… I’m not saying it has to be that way in an RPG, but clearly historically D&D has traded on increasing skill (Gygax goes on about this for an uncomfortably long time in his book Role Playing Mastery).

  • Steve // March 5, 2009 at 11:24 am | Reply

    I agree that there should be a learning curve, but most of that curve in previous editions were about picking your spells optimally. There was very little that the “martial” classes had in the way of neat things to do.

    Also, since mages could develop their own spells and there were a million and two spells in both the PHB and other books (e.g. Tome of Magic), mages ceased to be glass cannons since they could make themselves immune to damage (stone skin) and increase their armour as well (several different spells did this).

    Last minor point: Any character in 4E can just shove someone. It’s called “Bull Rush”. The difference is that a fighter with “Tide of Iron” can do that AND do damage. Why? Because they’re better at hitting people with shields and doing more than just shoving them. After more than 20 sessions of 4E so far, my players aren’t complaining about how their characters all feel the same, they’re mainly worried about what they’re doing in the setting, which is how I like it.

    Anyway, I’m not discounting your points. They’re very valid. I’m just not experiencing that with my game and no one has complained about the game system so far… although it does seem strange that warlords can use “inspiring word” on themselves :)

  • mxyzplk // March 5, 2009 at 1:44 pm | Reply

    Well, I agree that the martial classes needed spiffing up with something to do. Heck, I’m a Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords fan. In fact, it’s weird, when they were starting to talk about 4e and said “More like ToB, and Star Wars Saga!” I thought, “Boss!” But it just seems like what each class can do with their powers becomes so much more interchangeable.

    The Pathfinder approach with the barbarian rage abilities and whatnot seems to me to give a lot more martial options without making each class more “the same.” Just from reading the 4e PHB it seemed like so many of the powers were functionally identical from class to class.

    Though I’m glad your group isn’t finding it so. I’m sure it’s possible to run 4e in a way where that isn’t so glaring.

  • MoonStoneOracle // April 7, 2009 at 11:32 am | Reply

    Well, I’ve been playing D&D all my life and I’ve played all the editions except the first. And I really can’t say that I’m disappointed or anything with D&D4e. Everyone says it isn’t the same game anymore but I can’t help but feel like people aren’t really giving it a chance. I feel like they were trying to make vast improvements on a pretty confusing gaming system.

    Maybe you think they dumbed it down or whatever, but I don’t know I think they’re trying to allow more people into the Dungeons and Dragons world, and isn’t that a good thing? That seems a bit elitist don’t you think?

    I personally like it just as much as the old editions. They all had something good about them but I felt like each one was trying to progress with the time and allow newer generations to get into it too.

    I think I read someone say something about how there’s no immersion or whatever. But I mean, you can make the game whatever you want to be so if you can’t get into it, isn’t that your dm’s fault really?

    I think there was just too much going on in the old edition. Just looking at some of the things were enough to make my head spin. There was too many skills to learn, the multiclass was all over the place, and spells were tedious and half of them weren’t even worth learning. Granted some of the skills in 4e are a little “eh”. But I think the goal was to make all of the races/classes more balanced so a wizard isn’t hiding in a corner after he’s run out of spells for the day.

    But this is just my opinion. If you aren’t a fan of 4e then continue to play 3 or 3.5e or whatever you wish. I don’t think anyone is forcing you to play the newest edition and I don’t think anyone’s going to call you crazy for it. I think 4e for most people is a 20 or 1.

    Forgive my horrible joke.

  • Master Sage // April 7, 2009 at 2:38 pm | Reply

    Yum, Battle System, drool; Ok sorry drifting back to the days for the Blood stone pass modules. I wonder if I can dig them out and convert them to 4e.
    I picked up my first DND set when I was 12 and have been playing ever since. Four seven foot high book shelves, stacks of boxed games, countless dollars, and 22 years later; I can safely say I’m a Pen and Paper nut bag.
    When Fourth Edition was announced the earth shook and the dark clouds swathed over head as a result of my anger. Wizards had once again found a way to over commercialize and drain yet more of my hard earned scratch. “Not this time” is said. “No way am I forking out over hundred dollars in books” I thought.
    I have a fairly solid gaming community that I talk with; not as much as I would like since I work 60 + hours a week and have little time to play. At first when we talked about fourth edition they were on my side of things. I noticed however that over the past year their tune was changing. Words like, easy to just sit down and play, little to no prep time, and fun began to escape their lips. I finally borrowed a friend’s core set and began reading. There were things I like and things I did not that’s to be sure. At first the almost required use of miniatures made me mad but then as I thought about it, I play so many table top war games and have armies of miniatures; why did that bother me? In the end it did not. Long story short for me it is a very fun game. Having a wife, two kids, and a relentless work schedule, it is ideal that I can sit for a couple hours with friends and knock out a good RPG session.
    I would have to agree that the Role-playing should not be affected by any system. The RPG aspect of almost all games is left largely to the imagination of the group you are playing with regardless of the system.
    I just started running “The keep on the Shadow Fell” and while the module is a bit dry; I did not find it hard to spice up with a little flair.
    I will say I have made the following observations about those that I play with;
    Old timers like me really struggle emotionally with it at first, but in our groups case; the more they play it the more they like it, largely due to the speed of play. The first encounter in the module took us around 30 min. We played it out again a month later using the pre made characters; it took less than 15 minutes from the first init roll.
    Recent gamers, people who started with 3e, seem to really digit.
    We had one new guy join us, never played PnP, in his life. He loves it. The thing I noticed about 4e was how easy it was, compared to its predecessors, to teach and learn.
    Lastly I love the rituals, with a few exceptions like Knock, most of the rituals should be rituals in my not so humble opinion.
    Over all I would have to say that 4e rates about 7 out of 10 for me. Not the best I have seen but its gaining ground. If they get the tools implemented well, it could shoot up to 8 or 9. The character generator drove me up from 5 to 7. The very fact that you can crank out a character in detail in less than 30min just makes me giggle. The other thing to consider is that I suspect 4e core will stick around for a long time, if they are basing computer tools around them they will have a hard time switching the mechanics around.

    Master Sage

  • Matthew Lane // April 26, 2009 at 10:47 pm | Reply

    what it boils down to in the end is this handy little maxism i have devised.

    “3E is to fantasy novels, what 4E is to World of Warcraft Porn.”

    3E is about infinite veriety in infinite combination. Yes it could be wroughted but it was upto the GM to put a stop to this.

    4E is just about self gratification, its about getting to the next sex scene… um *cough* i mean combat encounter, with as little talking as possible.

    4E haters have their buzz words, but most of our grievances are legitimate. 4E lovers also have their buzz words to describe pretty much any problem we have with the new system: Balanced & streamlined are their favourites.

    Just because something has been simplified or balanced doesn’t make it good.

    -M

  • mxyzplk // April 27, 2009 at 6:24 pm | Reply

    @Matthew – heh heh, “Fair and balanced”, should be 4e’s new tag line.

  • Steve // April 28, 2009 at 6:16 am | Reply

    To be honest, a lot of virtual ink has been used to both prop up and denounce 4E (and 3E for those who just love 4E that much). I’m running a 4E game and it’s fun and people are enjoying it. That’s the bottom line. It mostly comes down to how you play any RPG. I’ve played games that have chapters and chapters of info on game worlds and player character interaction and role-playing that were completely ignored… because we blew stuff up in the game and that’s why we played it. I’ve also run 4E since July and, while you have to keep in mind that our game sessions are only about 2.5 hours, we’ve spent entire sessions in combat, but also entire sessions doing some pretty good role-playing as well. Yes, there aren’t 50 pages dedicated to how to role-play in the 4E PHB. That’s not great for new gamers, I’ll admit it. But there’s nothing in the new game that stops people from RPing to their heart’s content. To be honest, it almost harkens back to the original D&D in the sense that D&D used to be some roleplaying overlayed over the fighting mechanics of Chainmail. It didn’t mean that you couldn’t have fun or run a good gamewith lots of roleplaying. It meant that the books were there for the mechanics since the rest is essentially up to the players and the GM, as they always are.

  • mxyzplk // April 28, 2009 at 7:01 am | Reply

    Just read a good blog post, “First game of 4th Edition D&D” from Robertson Games, who does a lot of D&D session podcasts. His conclusion is “mixed, but worth improving rather than dismissing outright.” But the pros and cons are telling.

    Cons:
    - Combat takes too long
    - Marking adds complexity
    - Tactical minis focus harms the RP
    - Jarring game terminology hurts immersion

    Pros:
    - Get to design cards, terrain, maps, etc.
    - Tactical mini play is challenging
    - Enemies had various attack effects

    This is a great analysis and shows how you’ll like or not like 4e depending on where your values lie. If you are not particularly moved by the “fiddly bits” of tactical minis combat and power cards and all, you probably will find this a net negative. If you are, then you’ll want to get on board.

    For me personally, “It harms the immersion but hey, minis are fun” is very very far from a compelling game description. But I can see how casual and tactical gamers are drawn to it. And the “have lits of widgets to play around with” factor – I know people who really are drawn by that, and it certainly helps as a revenue model when you can sell high profit margin addons like battle mats, minis, tokens, power cards, etc.

    But in the end, since D&D isn’t even close to the only game in town any more – it has to really hit close to the mark to merit spending time house-ruling etc. If you prefer 3e, or Basic – play those! (Or better, Pathfinder.) Or one of the hundreds of other extant RPGs. Back in the 1970s-1980s, sure, D&D was the only meaningful game in town and it was mod that or do without (or play Rifts or GURPS with one of the two groups of scary people).

  • Taullan // May 5, 2009 at 10:34 pm | Reply

    I’m glad I found a place to vent. I really immersed myself in the D&D mythology developed over the past 25 years and I am really upset about it’s disappearance. Forget the rules, simplicity vs. depth argument, or whatever. I feel most betrayed by the complete destruction of the old stories and lore.

    They did away with so much of the richness and diversity in 3.x (even though I did like the rules better), yet at least there was a degree of continuity. In 4e, it’s almost all gone. what has been done to the Great Wheel? To the Realms? Why why why all the arbitrary changes?!!

    If you think it was done to “clean up some of the mess,” it could have been done with FAR LESS radical changes.

    Rules can be modified. I enjoy the complexity of the earlier editions, yes, probably because I like to admitedly powergame a bit. But rule changes I could live with…

    I stuck with D&D through all the editions mostly because they created a living, breathing world (or multiverse considering I’m still a huge Planescape fan), and now 80% in my estimation is destroyed. I became invested in that world and watched it grow well into 3 decades.

    Imagine if WotC got the rights one day to something like LOTR. At that point maybe Sauron will never have existed or they could change the fundamental nature of elves and call them…eladrin.

    To the 4e lovers, I don’t blame you, this hatred is obviously tailor made for many of us who grew up with the old editions.

    What a mess. Goodbye D&D, I’ll miss ya.

  • Matthew Lane // May 10, 2009 at 8:36 pm | Reply

    Here are a collection of moto’s for 4E some of us have been working on, during our 4E campaign.

    - Making 3E cooler since 2008
    - 4E, because who really wants 30 years of history anyway.
    - 4e, because playing power rangers is cool.
    - Fair and Balanced… to a fault.
    - If at first you don’t succeed, you obviously haven’t “optimised” your character build.
    - 4E, now with 80% more chess
    - 4E, needless change for changes sake since 2008

    Not all of these are mine, but they all sum up how many of us seem to feel about this new edition of *cringe* D&D

  • Chief // May 26, 2009 at 11:27 am | Reply

    Just wanted to say that I have played a lot of 4e because that is what my group decided to do.

    It is boring. All characters seem the same. All have spells in one way or another. Enjoyed 3.5 with this group so I have to believe the rules and the chucking of “traditional” magic and roles are the reason why I don’t enjoy it anymore.

    I find myself falling asleep waiting for my turn.

    I’m done with 4e. Never playing it again.

  • Tenshi // June 1, 2009 at 11:50 am | Reply

    Reading the main article and all of the comments really is an enlightening thing. All the differing opinions talking about the pros and cons of 4E.

    I have not been playing DnD for 5 years let alone 30 like some people here. I am really a new comer to DnD in a lot of ways. I started with 3.5 when it was at the end of it’s cycle.

    I have played 4E, I still play 4E because that is what the people I hang out with play and yes I would have to agree that the enjoyment of the game really depends on the people you are with and things like that. That being said, I do not like 4E. I really would prefer 3.5 over 4.0. The game is just too homogenized. Like everyone is the same thing with a little different flavor to them.

    In combat everyone has a role to play in 4.0, but to me that makes no sense. Why can’t you have a party that some people are great in combat, but others are great for getting the group through trapped areas, or even keeping them out of combat. Why do you have to have everyone be balanced.

    I mean it makes no sense to me. Mage characters should be cut down in open combat. They rely on magic and intellect, not brawn to get by in life. Rogues attack the unprepared, and run when their luck turns south. Bards should talk their way out of fights and know how to use people against each other. There is nothing wrong with having “unbalanced” classes, because the balance was in the full aspect of the game not just combat.

    Making all of the characters combat oriented just makes them bland. Suddenly you are criticized if you are a rogue shotting from the shadows instead of being out there with everyone else. I mean it’s and RPG a Role Playing Game. What is the point to Roles… if they are all the same.

  • Ghostlore // June 26, 2009 at 9:18 pm | Reply

    I suggest playing the game first (as opposed to just reading the books) in order to have a truer opinion of the game. I was, as many, saddened at first by this ‘video game’ version of my favorite rpg,…right up until I played it.
    Is it perfect? Nope.
    Is it better than 3.5? Absolutely.
    It’s faster. The rules are cleaner and better written for combat (which, let’s face it, is a huge part of the game).
    There is much, much, much more strategy and tactical planning required for party survival and the game focuses upon teamwork more than it ever has in the past.
    Though perhaps a savvy marketing element, the visual element (using miniatures and gridded maps), fleshes out a level of accuracy and cohesion that has never been seen in previous versions.
    To people who say the game is “homogenized” and that all the characters are the same, I would suggest a thorough re-examination of every race and class and some substantial play time. The classes are all quite different, and – whoa – balanced!
    I don’t know about anyone else, but in older versions of the game it truly SUCKED waiting for a spell to return or waiting for hit points to recover. 4E makes these problems non-existent, but in a believable and playable way. In the end this means more play time and less down time. How anyone can oppose this idea is beyond me.
    The element of role-play has always and will always continue to be there. A solid DM will never have a problem in crafting a compelling adventure for players to participate in, no matter what the version of the game is.
    Thankfully this is a newer, fresher and much more welcome edition in my opinion.

  • Ghostlore // June 26, 2009 at 9:22 pm | Reply

    I should also add that I have played the game for 30 years, and my first gaming experience came in the form of an adventure in that infamous keep, somewhere along the borderlands I believe ;)

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